Between Our Selves



In this programme, two surrogate mothers discuss the experience and the ethics of having a baby for a childless couple.


Lord Strathclyde, a hereditary peer, and Lord Hunt, a new life peer, discuss their different perspectives on the House of Lords.


Mountaineers Simon Yates and Mark Whetu have both made the agonising decision to abandon a climbing partner on a mountain.


Sylvia Clark and Jim Banks both lost relatives through suicide. They discuss the complex emotional legacy.


Psychologist Dr Julian Boon and psychiatrist Dr Richard Badcock discuss how profiling can help solve crimes.


Esther Lenehan and Douglas Kennedy are foreigners who chose to live in England. What do they make of the English?


Alexandra Little - sister of hostage Camilla Carr - and Jill Morrell compare notes on running a long campaign.


Politicians Shirley Williams and Shaun Woodward both left their respective parties. They discuss loyalty, integrity and the price of conscience.


The Observer's Lynn Barber and The Sunday Telegraph's Nigel Farndale reveal the secrets of interviewing and writing about celebrities.


Story Musgrave and Claudie Haignere talk about their space-travelling experiences, from the Cold War to the peaceful cooperation aboard the International Space Station.

01Going Undercover20010424

She meets two people who have lived life undercover, and they talk about the stresses and strains of leading a double life.


Olivia O'Leary talks to two mercenaries, soldiers of fortune who made their living fighting brutal wars in Africa and South America.


Olivia O'Leary meets Mitch Murray and Guy Chambers, songwriters for the stars.


Richard Olivier and Ken Wiwa discuss how they emerged from their fathers' shadows.


This week she speaks to two gay fathers about their experiences of bringing up children.


Two women whose husbands have suffered severe and traumatising amnesia describe their experiences.


What would your reaction be if your son told you he wanted to die and needed your support? Would you go along with it? What if your brother asked you to help him travel to Switzerland to end his life - would you help him? Olivia O'Leary meets two women who were faced with these choices. Both men had degenerative illnesses and did not want to live any longer, and both women were faced with helping them to die. But that is where the similarities end. Lesley Close's brother joined Dignitas, and travelled with Lesley and other friends and family to Switzerland where he was prescribed a dose of barbiturates which killed him within 20 minutes. Heather Pratton's son took her to his flat to cook dinner, and announced that he had some heroin and planned to die there and then. He took the heroin and lay down to die, falling asleep next to his mother. When she woke up five hours later, he was still breathing, but at the point of no return. To ensure he didn't recover, she put a pillow over his face. She now has a criminal conviction, and resents a system which, she feels, forced her son into taking his life in this way.


Olivia O'Leary meets Barbara Pointon and Ian Cash, two full-time carers.

02Manic Depression20030805

Olivia O'Leary talks to two people whose lives have been disrupted by manic depression.

02The Biographer's Art20010501

Eminent biographers Michael Holroyd and Humphrey Carpenter join Olivia O'Leary to discuss the passion and problems involved in writing about someone else's life.


Mary Kenny and Anna Coote talk about the changing face of feminism.


This week she speaks to prisoners on death row in the United States and asks how they face the devastating consequences of their friendship.


Olivia O'Leary talks to two women about their traumatic experience of forced marriage and being 'sold into slavery' by their own families.


Olivia O'Leary talks to Jacqueline Wilson and Keith Gray, who explain why they enjoy writing gritty and realistic fiction for children.

03Art Scams20040727

Olivia O'Leary meets forger John Myatt and convicted fraudster Tod Volpe to discuss corruption in the art world. John Myatt was one of Britain's most prolific forgers creating fake paintings that fooled leading galleries. Before ending up in jail for fraud Tod Volpe, a one time Hollywood art dealer, had a client list including Jack Nicholson and a host of movie producers.

03Election Directors20050830

They describe it as the politicians' Olympic Games: everyone is desperate to win and only the strong survive. Olivia O'Leary finds out what it's like to be in the thick of a General Election campaign. Michael Dobbs worked with Margaret Thatcher in the '70s and '80s, and Peter Hyman was one of Tony Blair's secret weapons in 1997 and 2001. They tell Olivia, with uncommon candour, what its like to be part of this world.


What makes one decide to dedicate one's life totally to God? A postulant and a nun from contemplative enclosed orders talk about the emotions and sacrifices involved in living a life of chastity and obedience.


Sir Peter Hall and Sir Richard Eyre compare notes on running the National Theatre.


Crime writers Ian Rankin and Sarah Dunant discuss the modern detective hero.


Olivia O'Leary talks to acclaimed photographers Horst Faas and Tom Stoddard about the changing face of international photojournalism.


Join Olivia O'Leary for this week's Between Ourselves as she hears the unique and disturbing stories of Gabriel Shumba and Carlos Reyes. Gabriel Shumba is a 29 year old Zimbabwean lawyer. Since he experienced brutality at the hands of his step-father, and by the cattle herdsmen he worked for when he was forced to leave school, he developed an interest in helping people maltreated by those in authority. He eventually went on to become a human rights lawyer, and in January of this year was representing an opposition MP (from the Movement for Democratic Change), when he was abducted and tortured. Carlos Reyes, now in his 50s, suffered similar treatment in Pinochet's Chile thirty years ago. He could not bring himself to describe what he went through, fearful of breaking down, but, incredibly, urges Gabriel to find forgiveness for his torturers. Carlos blames the political leaders and the system for his treatment, it is they who should be brought to justice. In his eyes the men who carried out the torture were also victims of that system.

04Body Dysmorphic Disorder20050906

Olivia O'Leary meets two people who suffer from Body Dysmorphic Disorder, two very attractive individuals who remain certain that they are so ugly they are offensive to look at.Mark was approached by a fashion designer in a bar, and asked to work as a catwalk model, which he did, until the focus on his appearance meant he had to stop.Sue cashed in her endowment policy to fund thousands of pounds worth of cosmetic surgery only to feel worse afterwards.

04Political Cartoonists20010515

Peter Brookes and Gerald Scarfe discuss their work as political cartoonists and how their images often say far more than words ever could.

04Prison Governors20060808

The Governor of Holloway and the Governor of Bristol discuss the ins and outs of running a prison.

04Sexual Abuse20040803

How would you feel if you discovered your children had been sexually abused? Olivia O'Leary meets two women whose husbands abused their children.


Nan Wise and Elisabeth Sanders talk about their very different reactions to their husbands' infidelity.


Two bishops - one Anglican, one Catholic - discuss issues that divide them and issues on which they are united.

05Forensic Archaeology20050913

This week's guests both started their professional careers as conventional archaeologists. Professor Margaret Cox and Professor John Hunter both worked on traditional excavations, existing in an academic world. Then came the discovery, by Hunter, that the skills of an archaeologist could be successfully applied to crime scenes: bodies could be located, murder scenarios could be worked out, and mass graves in places like Bosnia excavated and analysed.Professor Hunter has dedicated many years to working on individual murder cases, including searching for Keith Bennett, the moors murders victim. Professor Cox set up an organisation which helps to excavate mass graves in places like Iraq and Bosnia. Forensic archaeology was developed in Britain, and training courses run by Cox are helping other nations to establish their own skills base. Iraqi scientists were trained in the Wiltshire countryside, examining mock-ups of mass graves.


Olivia O'Leary meets two of the most successful jump jockeys of all time. Peter Scudamore was champion jockey eight times and Mick Fitzgerald has won both the Grand National and the Cheltenham Gold Cup. Mick tells of breaking his collar bones so many times he's had them removed.

05Living With Genius20010522

Two parents discuss frankly their experiences of bringing up gifted children, the battles they have fought and the challenges they have yet to face.

05Self-experimenting Doctors20030826

Olivia O'Leary meets two pioneering doctors who carried out groundbreaking experiments on themselves.


Ian Hislop, editor of Private Eye, and Oliver Schmitt, editor of the German satirical magazine Titanic, explore the power of satire.

" Ian Hislop, editor of Private Eye, and Oliver Schmitt, editor of the German satirical magazine Titanic, explore the power of satire.


She asks writers in exile, Vincent Magombe and George Szirtes, whether being an outsider is a help or hindrance to their work.


Trevor Kavanagh and Elinor Goodman debate roles as political editors.

06Community Activists20050920

Olivia O'Leary meets two social dynamos. Both lived in conditions which frustrated them and demoralised their neighbours, so they took matters into their own hands. Cathy McCormack and Mohammed Amram launched campaigns at a local level, and both ended up on national and international stages fighting for the rights of both their immediate and their global neighbours.


Conductors Sakari Orama, of the CBSO, and Mark Elder, from the Halle Orchestra, talk in depth about the skills and techniques involved in taking over established orchestras.

06Inter-country Adoption20030902

Una Mills decided to adopt a baby girl from a Chinese orphanage five years ago and as a result, Qin Ye from Nanjing became Ruth Mills from Wiltshire. Ruth is a happy and settled little girl, but memories and experiences from her nine months in China are deep within her. Pat Wordley thought she couldn't have children, and desperately wanted to adopt a baby. Just as she was arranging to fly to South America to bring home Amy, she discovered she was pregnant. She went ahead with the adoption, and in the space of a year became the mother of Amy, and her natural son, both are now 17. Olivia O'Leary meets Una Mills and Pat Wordley and hears about the practicalities, the huge emotional challenges, and the great rewards that adoption from abroad can bring.

06Professional Gamblers20020825

Olivia O'Leary talks to two professional gamblers about their shady existence working the world's casinos.

06Young Alcoholics20040817

Olivia O'Leary discusses the brutal effects of alcoholism with two recovering young alcoholics. Del was just eighteen when he was diagnosed with cirrhosis of the liver. Angela considered prostitution to support herself and her drinking. Today, in recovery, they discuss the dangers of alcohol abuse for young people today.


Valerie Netties and Jane Druburgh compare notes on the unexplained disappearance of a family member.


This week she speaks to two women with eating disorders.


Supermodels Erin O'Connor and Carmen dell'Orefice share their experiences of the fashion industry.

07Expat Politicians20040824

Olivia O'Leary meets Midlander Mike Bennett now a politician in Bolivia and German born Gisela Stuart, now a British MP and finds out if it really is possible for a foreigner to represent another country's people. What do you bring of your own country to your adopted home? And the ultimate show of loyalty, which country would you die for?

07Lone Twins20010605

Two 'lone twins', brought up without their twins due to separation or death, discuss their personal stories of separation and self-discovery.

07Zoo Directors20050927

Olivia O'Leary hears about some unusual predicaments: What do you do when you've got a rhino with a rectal prolapse? You think it's safely anaesthetised, but suddenly you realise that it's having problems breathing and could die unless you administer an antidote. You're in the back of a small van, and when it wakes up the rhino will be extremely bad tempered and you've nowhere to run.And what about the lemur which makes a break for freedom and sleeps peacefully in a tree surrounded by the police, fire brigade, and RSPCA, all trying to rescue it. Chris West, of London Zoo, knows all about problems like this and, along with Stuart Muir of Newquay Zoo, discusses both the amusing side of zoo life and the ethical dilemmas you have to confront when you're the director of a zoo.


Maria Bentley-Dingwall, niece of Derek Bentley, and Georgina Ellis, daughter of Ruth, discuss the legacy of the death penalty.

" Maria Bentley-Dingwall, niece of Derek Bentley, and Georgina Ellis, daughter of Ruth, discuss the legacy of the death penalty.


This week, she speaks to Robert Fisk and Martin Bell MP about their lives as foreign correspondents. They discuss war, morality and the problem of censorship.


Canon Andrew White and Alastair Crooke talk with Olivia O'Leary about negotiating hostage releases and the ends of sieges in the Middle East.


She talks to bomb disposal and mine clearance workers.

08Children Of Criminal Figitives20020908

Olivia O'Leary talks to Nick Reynolds, son of train robber Bruce, and Amber Marks, daughter of drug smuggler Howard, about their lives as fugitives and how they see their fathers.

08Living With A Name20010612

Gottfried Wagner and Nicholas Mosley talk openly about their experience of being related to someone who is internationally reviled.

08Miscarriages Of Justice20030916

Two men who, between them, spent nearly 40 years in jail for crimes they did not commit tell their stories to Olivia O'Leary.

08Survivors Of Disasters20040831

Olivia O'Leary meets Ruth Millington who survived the Bam Earthquake and Mary Campion who survived the sinking of an ocean liner. Ruth recalls waking up to find herself in the midst of the quake with tons of bricks bouncing around the room. Later she helped to rescue people buried in the ruins. Mary still has flashbacks from the Jupiter cruise line disaster which sank off the coast of Athens from which hundreds of school children were rescued.